Kudane

Actually I think its just the opposite, I think you will gain back some of the warriors who have left.

My wife for example is so excited about these changes she is already dusting off her warrior. She has not played in nearly 3 months, but now with the addition of "something to do" as she put it.. she is coming back.

in over 3 years of playing, the only common thing I have seen from people who leave the game because of "XXXXXX" is that they are generally not happy in the game anymore, even before the change. And of the people I personally have seen leave I would say a good 40% have come back to play, either a different class or different server.

And I would have agreed with you about making the game to easy on a few of the last changes.. but this one will actually make people pay attention, plan thier characters and attacks, and even show some signs of intellegence. When you see a 65th warrior with no "skills" over 60, you will know they are one not to group with.. find yourself a pally.... right Laertise?? (hehehe)

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Yetgerin

I am a 63 Warrior... and to be quite honest I am glad I wont be falling asleep anymore. As to Paladins loseing their spot as tanks? Wooot! maybe I wont have to wait 4 - 5 hours for a group to give me a tell. I have been told when I finaly get a group that I am a very good warrior. I take pride in what little I can do and do it very well. Warriors cant pull? heh go back to the drawing board. Warriors cant keep agro. Try a fully ubbered out Pali tanking a mob till the group was done with the one we where on and then me pulling the agro off of him immediatly. That totaly suprised that paladin. Try a 65 Shamy pulling with slow and then I watch as he types, " OMG how does a 63 warrior pull off of a 65 Shaman?" Yea I love the changes that are comeing. It will be alot less borring for me. As to Paladins loosing status? Pffft. Those that think that must not play theirs very well. Sorry but Paladins have alot of potential, and not just with undead either. I love a paladin in a group becasue they can grab agro when the cleric or nuker / slower is in trouble. If any of you think I dont know what I am talking about.... well I have been playing for 3.5 years now and have played every class even thoe I have stuck with my warrior. Reason for her only being Leve 63 right now instead of 65 with full aa's. Any way I am glad I wont be falling asleep any more.

jlpicard

I have played a paladin for over 3 years now. I have a lvl 65 paly with 122 AAs.

One thing I don't understand, is why people believe a paladin has such an advantage against undead? I mean, we SHOULD have the advantage, but really Sony has seen to it that we are NOT what you believe us to be.

Case in point:

Our undead NUKES, ROFL. If a paladin is casting this crap on the undead mobs, I would boot him from the group and put him on ignore. Our nukes are a sickening waste of mana. Our BEST nuke, Deny Undead (Level 62) costs 250 mana, has a 30 second recast time and delivers a whopping 630 or so damage. Gimme a break.

Our wonderful Disc: Holy Forge, reuse time is about an hour. Grants us three times the chance to Crit against undead..... /boggle

Our best and only undead advantage is Slay Undead 3: This AA will give the Paladin a chance to turn that crit into a slay. I have slayed for over 5k, and my low is 950. In a LDoN dungeon with a lot of undead, like guk or MM I can get maybe a half dozen slays in the whole dungeon. Not exactly "bowling" them over.

Paladin against undead, it is a myth, a myth that Sony refuses to bring to reality.

Ronandar_tunare

As a paladin, I will accept any changes they make to our class and bust my ass to use them the best way I can as many of our class always have done. Theres 2 kinds of players, the ones who will just cry they are nerfed and give up, use it as an excuse. And then there are the ones who laugh at sony for trying to put them down and come out ahead. In xp groups, a paladin is allmost always taken over a warrior as it is now. If this change helps warriors gain faster agro, then maybe that will change. But a skilled player of one class will always be better then the unskilled of another class.

I dont see why anyone would want to just cry about being nerfed. Take the change and do what you can with it. Sony doesn't have it out for any one class. They are just trying to make the classes more suited to their roles.


my 2cp.


edit:

And as for the comments about paladins and undead....

PLEASE! Paladins are the ultimate undead killers. Put a paladin in a mistmoore adventure and watch the undead fall before our might! Ok, Slay undead dont land alot. No where near as much as it did before the nerf, but still, lets see. I can parse a MM adventure, then a Ruj adventure. In mistmoore, a paladin with slay 3 will out damage allmost everyone. Even a high end monk or rog. But in Ruj, paladins will be lucky to come in last place with damage. Even our weapon innate proc buffs are tuned to killing undead, with the undead one not only procing more often, but landing for twice the damage.

Any paladin who says they are not feared by the undead minions of Norrath is a paladin I truely do not wish to ever group with.




Ronandar Kandie
Tunare Server

Jessper

can we make it so when casters jump they lose 10% mana too? (/sarcasam off)so dumb...

SauriaSoulfarer

they said the endurance cost of jumping is going to be "minor." I'm not too worried. If people are running out of endurance all the time they will be under pressure to adjust it, and remember this stuff isn't even on Test yet.

I think this will be a lot of fun, an opportunity for the player who pays attention to improve their gameplay. Warriors needed something besides attack/stop attacking. And all non-casters and non-caster-hybrids needed something to make them more desirable in PoP.

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laertise

ahh kudane loves me!!!
But on the pally undead thing thats been brought to light I agree with jlpicard to some extent we are not the slayers of undead we could be but I also agree with Ronandar that we are the best of the buisness. Heres where I see the problem the dd spells cost to much mana and are mana pulls are insufficent for the set task. I generally look for equip that ups my sta so that when grouping the Planes I'm a sufficent tank but if i'm gonna be an undead caster I need to look for higher wis gear. Now don't get me wrong I have a wis of 203 but this still comes up lacking when I'm in mm I can have VoQ on and if I use my dd spells the way I'd like to I burn through mana quick. I can usually cast deny about once per mob maybe twice.

I think all will agree this should be a good adjustment for the warriors among us. It may give the pally class a little competition in the tanking field among groups but as once said if you know your class people on your server will know you as a good player and you will still be desired in groups.

Laertise

Bremadle

Getting this back on Topic as a warrior pure melee discussion.

Warriors have needed something new for a long while; I don’t think this will be what they were hoping for, as the master of all weapons (read Verant's description pre Sony ownership when most warriors were made). I am sure they hoped for more argo and more dps. I think the excitement, if there is any, over these changes is simply the starvation effect (anything is good when your this hungry) and shocked that they finally are doing something. These changes are not class defining or enhancing in anyway.






They’ve (melee classes) been begging for disc enhancements since Velious. The most defining thing for warriors has been their disc’s (defensive, evasive and to a much lesser extent shield) and now the one thing they could count on is changing. I would very concerned if I was a 300 days plus played 65 warrior with 250+ aa’s that now I need to get more aa’s, find skill tome’s to maintain what I have, then find addition tomes to enhance and acquire the changes that I should have been given 2 years ago, when I first started asking.

Stamina being replaced by endurance... They really need to explain in more detail what this means.



Yet why not do it, no changes have yet been announced for simply fixing taunt, wanna define warrior class as the meat shield, the BIG HP guy/gal with weapons skills and without the need to cast a spell FIX TAUNT. This helps every class in a very straight forward way those classes with taunt can now hold argo via the taunt button in direct releationship to thier taunt skill. Sure do the other things you suggest (/yawn) but FIX TAUNT!

There are a lot of questions unanswered, and maybe I'll be totally wrong and this will make the melee world a better place, lets hope so anyway, I am really tired of watching my friends leave the game.

One more point: The bandwagon jumpers and Sony defenders (read Kudane, yes, I know this is your site) actually work against those who actually bring broken issues to the surface, every time someone with a message finally gets their (Sony) attention you come out of the wood work flying the I <3 Sony flag and Sony reads the good press (even their own press), cheers they did a great job, meanwhile the people who did thier best to bring the issue to light and have the most invested (in this case warriors) end up going away and eventually playing froglok wizards or quitting the game.

There is an EQ killer out there I don't have a crystal ball to show what it is or when it will happen but when it does, those who championed Sony's defense will be partially responsible for the demise of EQ by stifleing those who have issues and are doing their best to see them addressed.

If this appears to be a flame its not meant to be its just one more person who is tired of reading the propaganda from Sony and seeing others believe, and replay it like some kind of Amway salesman and then appear to speak for the playing population.

If Sony wants to know how they are doing they need look no further then then thier own new account subscription and account closure database's or OMG actually speak to the players directly.

laertise

Well Bremadle I for one think this is a good idea sony is putting an attempt out to increase the interaction between the player and the character in combat situations (which is a big reason I would never play a warrior) no spells how drab. Secondly there gonna increase there argo. I for one applaud sony for at least making an attemt to make playing a warrior more intersting to play and acctually making them a tank who can hold arggo which seems to be what your whole complaint is, and the taunt thing if Kudane was to knock you in the head and I was to yell at you which of us would you attack. But if when you turned your back on me I stuck a knife between your ribs. Well after all the game is supposed to resemble life.

Laertise

ONE other big note you play EQ now I doubt your about to stop playing eq so sony has no fear of loosing there investment in you, so the fact that they are still tring to make the game more enjoyable is a big plus to them in my book.

KelricStormwolf

Re: the paladin concerns...

I think what some players forget is paladins/shadowknights/rangers are still (and probably always will be) considered hybrids. Yes, it's true that it's more practical to consider classes from a damaging/tanking/healing perspective for *players*... but never forget that the Devs, whether they would like to shift paradigms or not, are still restricted by nearly 10 years of coding (going back to McQuaid and Co's beginning) from a specific perspective. Changing viewpoints on the surface, so to speak, where all us players float and swim, may make sense, but those that dive deep, they're restricted by the sea floor... waves on the surface won't change the geography at the bottom.

Having said that: hybrids have always been designed to do multiple jobs, but none as well as a base class. We who play hybrids HAVE to keep that in mind when we evaluate ourselves versus others. Knights have lately been in a position to tank better than warriors, keep aggro better than warriors, and do considerable damage on top of that. While that's great (and I mean that sincerely), that's not where knights should be relative to warriors. Warriors are *designed and intended* to be the ultimate tanks and dangerous damage dealers, but recent changes to rightly inprove other classes left warriors in particular in a limbo.

I think most long term rangers can sympathize. Back in '99-00, pre-Kunark, rangers were the place to be; we tanked as well as warriors, did as much or more damage than any other melee, and had plenty of utility in downtime or to cope with the unexpected. With Kunark we went from first place to last place (so to speak) in one fell swoop, not getting the skill increases or gear to compete either offensively or defensively. Rangers were manasinks, the scrawny kids that got picked last in P.E. Subsequent changes and expansions balanced things better, thank goodness... but we've been where warriors feel they are right now.

It's happened with other classes as well (I remember rogues having a bad time for a while), but as much as the later coding changes helped, we (rangers) had to realize that we couldn't play like we had, we weren't the best at everything anymore, that we had a role to fill in a group-oriented game, and while the changes weren't perfect, they put things back towards where they should have been all along.

The good news (from my point of view) about these new melee changes is that noone's getting penalized or left behind; certain classes in need of boosting are getting boosts, without other classes being 'nerfed'.



Oh, I didn't mention bards in the above, because they're really a unique case, but the same could be said: all hybrids, including bards, can do just about anything another class can do, and well enough to fill in if necessary, but we're not, and *shouldn't* be, able to do it to the same degree as those who specialize. To me, THAT'S what class balance is all about.

Bikther

Paladins are a "Swiss-army knife" class we may not be the best at a single job but we got a tool for most situations.

We pull, stun, heal, buff, tank and put out DMG decently but not a single one of those out does any other class.

As for the Agro issue i think it has more to do with player then class. Yes a paladin can grab agro fast with a fast cast stun and a tuant and bash..but the DMG a warrior will do in that time will almost balance it out and once the pally stops the spells and taunts the warrior will have agro.

The only reason a pally should be grabbing agro is if a caster is being attacked or if tank is close to death and needs a bit of help.

The way I have always seen it a Paladin is in a group to die first.
If pally dies while Tank is being healed..tank lives regains agro and casters therefore live..group kills mob pally gets rez.
If pally dies to save a caster (usually cleric)...group can finish of mob and pally gets rez.

Dieing does suck but there is no way to avoidit...but if your death means the group lives then you have helped you group much more then if you dealt some more dmg.

Trust me from my experience a dead paladin first almost always means the group will live. It is not very often that a last second LOH to a cleric or warrior does not turn the tide of a battle. And yes once it hits the paladin is in for a beating from the mob..but the group lives and you get a rez so really no harm done.



So really the coming changes can really be getting pally's back to what they are...multi-use class...doer of many master of none..the essence of Hybrid.


Hybrid never means all of the comonents that make it but rather...a balance of the best parts to make something different yet similar to what made it.


Paladin = Cleric + Paladin

average healer/stunner/pacifyier/buffer/tank/agro is what a paladin should be and once we become the best at one we are no longer what our class was intended to be.



Sorry for the long rant it's late and I just wanted to say my feelings on the worries a lot of paladins have.

Learn your class. Do not get PL'ed and you will learn why paladins are welcomed without hesitation at higher levels.

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Gelielian

I play a lvl 59 war, and a 40 necro.

As the warrior i always thought that it was kinda stupid that the warrior, the melee class with the most HP and stuff had the hardest time keeping taunt. We dont have squat for DPS and if there is a pally in the group thats atleast close to our lvl then why shouldnt they tank? if im not mistaken, they get spells that do nothing but add hate. Seemed a tad bit silly to me. I would think that having healing spells would be enough for the pally, but i guess SOE didnt see it that way. Anyway, this didnt keep me from playing, i dont group with a pally every single time so it doesnt effect me that much.

But now with the new taunting abilites that warriors are gonna get i see a new group situation that could arise. Say you have a group that has a War, Pally, Rogue, Cleric, Chanter, and maybe a Wizard or other DPS class. Now say you pull 2 mobs. I see the warrior taunting one mob while the other runs to the Cleric, so pally goes and starts tanking and taunting that other mob, using his taunt spells even. Now because the warrior has all these new taunting abilites, he can actaully keep the agro while the other group members go all out on the one mob while pally keeps the other one busy. Now because the warrior is doing such a good job taunting with the new abilites and such, that mob goes down really fast and the group can turn to the pallies mob. Warrior taunts off mob and then pally goes to DPS and this mob dies even quicker than the last one.

In this situation the pally served a very important role, and we even saved the chanter from wasting mana on a Mez spell, which could have failed and got him killed, and now he can save that mana for when the idiot warrior pulls 5 mobs.. And when that happens, warrior agin concentrates on one mob while pally keeps the others off chanter while he mezzes them.

Now thats just my opinion on what MIGHT happen after the changes, i might not even be close but hey it would be cool if the warrior and pally had such improtant roles even when they shared a group.

Shainaen

i love how everyone is focused on the paladin class for tank and aggro. That's fine. Taunt is not broken. People need to just learn how to control their taunt is all. Blaming the game is a pathetic excuse and a cop-out. It is the people that need to learn to control their aggro. Why do i know this? I play a shadow kngiht and we are the masters of aggro. Plain and simple hands down the final truth. We can take it immediately and we can get rid of it in a heart beat like NO ONE else can (FD is beautiful). If you disagree then you simply have grouped with really bad SK's. I have taken and kept aggro from any warrior i grouped with unless i just didnt want it. I have kept aggro from shaman and chanters who spam debuffs to try to take it back from me. I have kept aggro from the stun spamming paladin. Sony nerfed the SK when they killed our ability to fear mobs over L53. But in the same nerfing they also gave us our best taunt. Combine fear with a shot of some dark snare and our own Damage shields, throw in a terror line spell now and then for simple color and you have the masters/mistresses of aggro. Do SK's always need to be MT? nope. should we? nope. But the shadowknight is the epitome of hate. We are born of hate. we ARE hate. now tell me what is aggro? Hate. Hence the wonderful coined term - hate list. We have specific spells (though basically useless) designed to do nothing BUT generate aggro (Voice line which is a buff for others and Terror line which is a damageless aggro generator.) Pity they are a waste since our darkness lines cost less, cast faster and generate more aggro as well as our nerfed fear.

Cry that taunt is broke. Let me get you a hankey. Posture and strut saying "my class > your sk for aggro" and i will get you a mirror to drool on yourself all you like. but that's the most you will do is drool. The issues of aggro are not that it is broken. it's that people don't know how to control it.

These new changes just give warriors something more to do then sit and fall sleep or simply mash their taunt button hoping that mindlessly mashing does some good. (it doesn't so ya know... You actually need to know when to hit the taunt button.. mashing does nothing but make a worn out button and youlose aggro more then generate it)


I AM Hate! Fear me. Those who stand against me will soon learn i am Death!!

Kelric

Hrm... I certainly didn't mean to perpetuate a class vs class discussion... but I'm certainly glad to see examples of hybrid players who aren't crying foul before the fixes are in.

As a ranger, also able to generate and dissipate aggro easily, I'm really glad warriors are going to get something. It just makes sense to me. Not to mention, it looks like they're going to do it in a way that makes it interesting for the player. I'm really interested in seeing how this plays out, which classes get what abilities, how they work, what the strategies are going to be... but so far, I think it looks really cool!

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